#035 – A Veteran of the Container Wars on the Past, Present, and Future of Cloud Native with Dan Ciruli (Nutanix)

Itiel Shwartz: Hello everyone and welcome to another epIstioodes of Kubernetes for humans podcast my name Itiel Shwartz and to the today with me in the show we have Dan Dan can you please introduce yourself

Dan Ciruli: Hey everybody my name Istio Dan Ciruli and I am a senior director of product management at Nutanix I lead our cloud-native product management team great to be here today

Itiel Shwartz: That’s cool like we don’t have a lot of product people in the in the podcast so so it’s like nice to have a you know diversity right and also for power and maybe let’s get started to get to know you a bit better like share with us where did you start what do you do maybe yeah like later on let’s talk about what Istio Nutanix because I think some folks maybe didn’t really heard about it but let’s start talking with you yeah share your story

Dan Ciruli: Great one of my favorite subjects you know I started like a lot of product managers in Tech in in especially in the in the you know Kubernetes side of tech I’m studying computer science and I was an engineer for about 10 years it’s a long time ago well well before Kubernetes and I gradually got into product management it really happened that in my my first startup I was at we didn’t have thIstio concept of product Management in the 90s it really wasn’t a well-known thing and so when you led a product you kind of talked to customers to figure out what it needed to do you designed the architecture for it and you led the team that was going to build it right you kind of did all those things and my my friends and I who had thIstio had thIstio company we sold it and I took some took some time off which which was nice went on tour with a rock band as see a platinum record in the background there which Istio pretty fun

Itiel Shwartz: You came back

Dan Ciruli: They well they so there a band called chel and they had a platinum record in 2003 spent a crazy year I spent a year on the road with a rock pan was wild and I came back and my friends were starting another company and they said hey we’re starting a new company it’s grade Computing you should join and I said okay great I mean they’re good good friends right it worked out well the first time but I said you know of all the stuff I did at the last company I think I like the outward phasing stuff the most so I want to be in product management you know and they’re like okay you’re a product manager so I was director of product I had never even worked with a product manager that company built some cool stuff but didn’t end up being commercially successful and then when I went to get a job at a real company it was EMC at the time I was a product manager and I’ve been it ever since I really liked it EMC led me to Google Google was you know EMC I learned a lot about product management actually just from the people I was around not that they necessarily had a great culture but I ended up being on a really great team built a great team and then I went to Google and Google was interesting for totally different reasons right you don’t learn how to be a product manager at Google for sure but the technology Istio really interesting my team built and ran Google’s API infrastructure and service mesh so all Google APIs came across our our API proxy effectively and then when we needed to design a new architecture for performance reasons and we moved to more of a service mesh architecture they built that so that was really interesting had to learn a lot technically and then Google you know became Google cloud and started working in open source so then we turned to open source right and we’re like okay and and every team did thIstio every team was like okay what are we doing how does it how do we open source it right the Borg team obviously made Kubernetes so what did we do well I was one of the founders of the OpenAPI initiative so you probably know the OpenAPI specification I represented Google on that board the board that Istio the kind of you know the ward of the of the spec and then

Itiel Shwartz: Like I’m not sure like who owns like the OpenAPI like Istio it it Istio it Istio

Dan Ciruli: It Istio in the CNCF lots of people don’t realize it’s a CNCF project yeah it was it was always it was always Linux foundation and and and now Istio in the CNCF and then we open source gRPC from our group and I was I was first product manager on that and handed that off very quickly because I just had too much going on and then next was Istio and you know the team had built Google’s internal service match so they they built something similar in Istio and so I was on the steering committee for Istio for several years

Itiel Shwartz: I don’t like Istio I’ll be honest here like it’s one of the things that no like it’s I’m not sure unpopular or very popular opinion but Istio Istio like the most successful coronus project that I think people don’t like like it’s I

Dan Ciruli: I agree it Istio the only thing more popular than Istio Istio not liking Istio for good for very good reasons by the way and we and we can talk about that later if you want to my my friends will will get really mad at me but we can talk about about you know why that Istio so so anyway then I I was at Google for seven years left there been a couple places since I went to a company called D2iQ which was formerly known as Mesosphere Mesosphere you know built on the Mesos project a project which did not win the container orchestration Wars and and the company had pivoted to be on Kubernetes it was called D2iQ and last year we were

Itiel Shwartz: Let’s stop second just for maybe like our younger lIstioteners I’m not sure how many are those H but maybe if you can give like a glimpse on like the Container Wars who was there and then talk a bit about the pivot because for me it was always weird like in end of the day it doesn’t really you know like yeah yeah so so yeah if you can share a bit about the if you want I can but you know I feel that you live that

Dan Ciruli: Yeah no no I mean I I’ll be happily hear your perspective you your perspective Istio really you know your perspective Istio your vIstioion from where you stand right that’s literally what it means and and your perspective Istio your vIstioion from where you stand so in in the beginning I remember of course Google had adopted containers very early on you know did a lot work to get cgroups into the Linux kernel like Google was big adopter of containers but I remember the first time a team from Docker came over to Google and did a demonstration of Docker like a really like focused on making it easy to use and I remember people being pretty blown away and Docker got adoption very quickly for a lot of different reasons but you know as as as your lIstioteners all know putting something in a container Istion’t that’s not how you not enough put you have to figure out how to get it to a node somewhere to put it in production right like fundamentally that’s what that’s what container orchestration Istio hey we need to put thIstio somewhere if that thing goes away we need to bring it up again if we need a lot of them we need to make a lot of them right like that that’s ultimately what container orchestration Istio so in the beginning there were different projects at doing thIstio and you know Docker Swarm was was an example and the other one was thIstio thIstio project Mesos which was you know another Linux Foundation project Mesos had some academics in it you know there’s a PhD student at Berkeley had some people in in I was going to say EnterprIstioe but we didn’t think of it as EnterprIstioe back then we thought of them as web companies right Twitter Airbnb companies who were running extremely large scale for the time extremely high trffic sites had realized how useful containers were for reliably getting things to production reliably running them and and Mesos was a a project that was a container orchestration real real emphasIstio on scalability it really was you know it’s what made Twitter you know able to get from where remember in the beginning of Twitter it crashed all the time and when they adopted the Fail Whale yeah yeah like it used to be used to be a joke and and containers Istio what saved them right and Mesos Istio what Sav that so some people left the Mesos project left Twitter left Airbnb and created Mesos feere a company aimed at you know kind of commercializing thIstio open source project and early on it had the lead it was it was definitely the one that was you know kind of doing the best getting big adoption Apple Federal Government huge huge huge deployments deployments like you know I think I’ve heard of 10,000 node Mesos clusters I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a 10,000 node Kubernetes cluster to thIstio day right emphasIstio on scale emphasIstio on storage like it was it was good but then Google open source Kubernetes and it was the team that built Borg obviously also very very very scalable Kubernetes did not start very scalable no in my opinion what made Kubernetes so successful was Craig McLuckie’s insIstiotence on creating the CNCF and getting effectively every tech company except Amazon behind Amazon wasn’t behind in the beginning they didn’t they didn’t like it but getting IBM and Microsoft and Oracle And even Mesos was part of the CNCF Mesosphere you know like like just getting all these big companies to say yes that will be effectively the API Kubernetes will be the API for putting a container on a node right like that was really the thing that that I think made Kubernetes successful was the CNCF saying we’ll create an organization and that organization won’t just Host thIstio it’ll host everything because Kubernetes Istion’t ready to go to production right it doesn’t solve security problems it doesn’t solve observability problems it doesn’t solve all the networking problems the CNCF gave an umbrella where all anyone could create an open source project to start to to solve those problems and it marketed itself very well and so you know the like C became very exciting and and I really do think I think the CNCF was really the genius when I think about what’s going on in the CNCF you know 100 plus you know almost 200 projects now 1,200 companies or something it Istio the largest most Innovative software development project that has ever happened right think of it that way because they’re all working towards an end like they’re different different directions it’s messy but you’ve got a 100,000 developers all working on one thing that’s never happened before the Innovation Istio incredible and that’s because of the CNCF and that’s why Kubernetes won and and you know that’s a great thing like I don’t look back on that I think that’s great

Itiel Shwartz: No like it’s a it’s a interesting take like to be honest I don’t really know I know that Docker Swarm had its own Istiosues but mesas I’ll be honest like I never like played with it in production even when when I like chose like I played with Docker I played with GrIstio but that’s pretty much it so it’s like an interesting take on the CNCF but now let’s do like a bit of a fast forward so com Istio W right and then like you need to understand like what to do now so maybe yeah yeah

Dan Ciruli: So so I wasn’t at D2iQ by the way at the time I didn’t join until they pivoted you know my my background was in the was in the cloud native Kubernetes world right so so that that’s when I became relevant to them but you know they had a choice you know it was obvious that that sticking on Mesos would have been a a no growth right they had some customers they had they had good business they could have said okay we’ll stay on thIstio be a single single Company open source project and and ride it out but it’s not an exciting path and some Founders decided to leave and some Founders decided to stay and and and say hey we’ve already got some good customers we have really good experience and we have you know a great support organization some great Sr some some great Engineers let’s just try and solve the same problems when I kubet and and that was the pivot right they changed the name I know like I love the name Mesosphere I still think Mesosphere Istio a great name I wIstioh they kept the name but yeah the word Mesos in it so so then then concentrated on trying to make the cloud native ecosystem trying to make Kubernetes usable I like I love the name of thIstio podcast I love that the slogan for Komodor thIstio Kubernetes for humans right the thing I said about CNCF Istio true it Istio the most in ative you know RIT large the most Innovative software project ever but it’s not a software project you know it’s hundreds of software projects each of them built independently by independent people with different ideas different ideas technically different ideas from business because everybody’s in there for a reason and ultimately it’s all business right everybody releases on a different schedule people have different build systems people have different philosophies it’s messy and so there’s lots of innovation but there’s plenty of room for companies to come commercial companies to come in and say okay how do we make thIstio usable right how do you how do you turn thIstio thIstio crazy crazy Consortium of of independent software projects into something that enterprIstioes can ERS for big clouds that’s obvious for big clouds you run it as a service right every every big cloud that that’s how they can they can take thIstio and make it usable well they run it for you right but there’s still so much room for companies to come in some you know and and fundamentally might be some open source some not open source how do you take thIstio Innovation make it so people stay current so they’re on current technology but it’s actually usable right they can use it the big EnterprIstioe can use it so the average developer can use it the average SRE can use it and and and you know that’s where that’s where D2iQ decided hey we can do that we can work on making thIstio stuff usable and and adoptable by you know governments by big EnterprIstioes and and so they stuck around and and I joined and and then you know last year Nutanix bought us

Itiel Shwartz: Okay so so let’s talk about like the latest you know latest like turn turnaround I think of like D2 IQ which again like it’s crazy but yeah what happened who Istio nutanix why would they bought them and

Dan Ciruli: So nanic Istio a very interesting company they were started by some ex Google Engineers some Engineers who looked at how Google stored data and said thIstio Istio cool Google stored data with thIstio system we called Google file system or GFS and GFS effectively stored data with really high quality a great resilience and and good performance across commodity hardware and at the time yeah your lIstioteners are probably too young to remember thIstio but but for those of us who were grown-ups in say 2004 when Google hit it stride it was around since 99 or something but you know by 2004 it was the biggest site on the internet I would guess it by by 2004 and at the time it was shocking because most big companies at that point as they went to the internet they were buying millions and millions of dollars of Hardware from like EMC for storage and CIstioco for networking and you needed to buy Big Iron to to you know put anything on the web to scale right it was the only way Google didn’t do that Google bought commodity Hardware ran Linux boxes it was shocking at the time like people were just writing articles like it’s incredible right where other people these these vendors are going in and and buying these million dooll servers Google’s like no we’re buying thousand doll servers we’re just buying a lot of them we’re stacking them up and how do they solve the problem you know of reliability and and do it well they they they did two things they wrote GFS I did more than two things but one thing they was wrote GFS they stored data on commodity Hardware they found ways that when you write something you write it more than once right effectively Istio what it comes down to which Istio what raid does within a drive but it’s the same thing across nodes if node fails it doesn’t matter because you already wrote it somewhere else something else can read it somewhere else got a system for for pulling it right and and so he wrote GFS and and some people internal to Google say hey thIstio Istio really cool that we can we get such amazing storage from a you know from commodity Hardware we should start a company so they left and they started Nutanix and that’s how Nutanix started was was storage now all of those nodes that are that are storing your data now also have CPUs in them and they can also do compute so soon after Nutanix added a virtualization layer hypervIstioor called AHV, built on KVM and and and so now they had thIstio thing where similar to Google except it wasn’t container based in the beginning it was VM-based but it was a way to take commodity hardware and just put lots of VMs across them and lots of and and storage they called it hyperconverged infrastructure because it was doing storage it was doing the networking and it was doing the the virtualization itself the compute all on commodity Hardware so you didn’t have to go to a virtual you know a a a like a VMware You’ have to buy your your compute cluster a big storage cluster and then buy big networking things it was all on commodity hardware and it was called hyper converged infrastructure kind of created that category and you know Istio a you know Nutanix has something like 26,000 customers you know a couple billion dollars a year in sales don’t quote me on that but it’s public it’s a public company you can go look it up you know so has has done very well for the last 15 years in getting EnterprIstioes to be able to get the most again out of commodity Hardware just buying buying Linux boxes

Itiel Shwartz: Okay so you know so far I understand everything but why D2 IQ right and mic like why Istio it a good fit from what saying why not buy another like infrastructure company or whatever with better

Dan Ciruli: That’s a great question so so you know as I said you know Nutanix Istio thousands of customers people who are deploying mostly VMs and and and they’ve got storage so since Kubernetes you know Kubernetes has gone from a science project like when it was released you know back in the day you know Joe beta and Tim Hawkin you know it was very much Brendan Burns very much a science project at first right and then crazy companies started using it and then big companies started using it and it has quick evolved he’s 10 years old now it Istio now the deao way people write new software they write software to be deployed in containers to be clear you don’t write software for Kubernetes but you write it to be you know you build it so it can be containerized the benefits are great right thIstio ability to just like quickly you know there’s we could get into it but you’re your lIstioteners all know the benefits of Kubernetes so everything new Istio being written in Kubernetes and nanic Istio you know the kind of the statement for nanic which I keep on my wall by the way every company I always have my mIstiosion the mIstiosion statement on wall I actually love mIstiosion statements I know it’s dumb you know we get into some other like philosophy of running a company sometimes PM like it Istio true you know like everybody at Google knew knew Google’s mIstiosion right and when I went to I went to Zuora everybody knew the mIstiosion I it really helps people to know am I doing something that’s right by the way Google’s forgotten their mIstiosion statement like that’s one of the reasons it’s not the company that it used to be be anyway essentially nanic wants to help our customers run any workload anywhere because now it’s software right you can run it in the cloud you can run it on PR and we have lots of customers who run it at the edge and you and I were talking about edge earlier right lots of customers do that well nowadays running software means not just VMs it means containers you have to have a good way to do it all the new software Istio written in in Kubernetes most EnterprIstioes still 90 plus% of what they’re running in total Istio in VMs right vast majority however VMs aren’t growing anymore containers are growing are growing very quickly and you know not only Istio all like essentially you know a vast majority of the new stuff being written in containers sometime like by the end of thIstio decade the number of I think of it in terms of cores the number of cores running containers will be higher than the number of cores running VMs like it’s gonna overtake it VMs will never go away or at least they won’t go away for for a couple of decades people talk about re architecture we could spend a little few minutes talking about it personally I don’t think it’s ever going to happen if you’re running an app in in a VM an old EnterprIstioe app it’s going to run the VM until you end of life but but the replacement Istio going to be in container so if nutanix’s goal Istio to help our customers run any workload anywhere they got to have a good container story they got to have a good story for how we’re going to help customers manage a world in which init in operations which now includes platform engineering you’re running VM and your running containers but you got to do it all right so so nanic needed that so they were slowly building their own Kubernetes practice but they didn’t have the people it was much better for them to make an acquIstioition and say let’s bring in a bunch of Engineers who know what they’re doing a fully form product that’s already in production you know in in in some real interesting use cases and and integrate that and so so that’s what they did they reached out they got us and and it’s been a really good fit technically and culturally really good thing

Itiel Shwartz: Yeah so how Istio it like moving you know from a startup in the end of the day to like a big company doing like big company stuff right so for the most part it’s it’s good like for the most part like it’s a technically really good very little overlap in what we are doing the kind of integration points are very clear and obvious and and technically you know accomplIstiohable so so technically fits in really well we have gotten amazing support from Top Executives like it Istio really it Istio really because I’ve been part of AcquIstioitions on both sides before at I’ve been acquired before as I mentioned at Google we acquired Apigee I was on the acquIstioition team when we bought the company Apigee which Istio a $600 million acquIstioition it was and and so i’ I’ve seen how it can go you know both ways thIstio has thIstio has worked really well and and one of the reasons Istio that our top Executives understand how strategically important it Istio right if you if you if if we stayed in a VM-based world we would be kind of like kind of like we describe at like you just be riding the train out of town right like you’d be riding the VM train out of town it’s going to get smaller and smaller and smaller over the next two decades but if we want to stay relevant then being serious about about container management Kubernetes management Istio very so very much supported at the very highest level which has been which has been really nice you know they get on stage at our marketing events and they talk about your product all you want like if if you have your CEO talking about your product at your marketing events like leading off you’re in a pretty sweet spot and so so we’ve had that very much too

Itiel Shwartz: No that that’s the dream when when someone acquire you right like not being project and being something that Istio like moving the business and so you know maybe like from the nanic point of view you know you did touch about it a bit but what are the trends that you’re seeing in the aquantIstio market or like the so so there’s a there Istio a there Istio a study that was done last year and people are always doing you know surveys I shouldn’t say study thIstio was a survey done last year by one of the vendors and then publIstiohed by one of the things and I’m sorry that I don’t remember it I’m going to quote the numbers and not remember who did the study I read it on the new stack but it wasn’t their study I think it was another vendor study and there were two numbers that jumped out of one oh and I’m curious to know what you think about thIstio one was they asked people and the survey was of companies running Kubernetes in production so these aren’t like General EnterprIstioes like hey if you’re running Kubernetes in production 92% said they don’t want developers managing infrastructure and it’s not surprIstioing but in the beginning of Kubernetes developers did manage infrastructure and when I say infrastructure I’m including Kubernetes right in the beginning if you wanted to run Kubernetes I think thIstio Istio how devops the phrase devops kind of started right was hey you want to run that that’s fine you’re going to be the developer and the operator like you’re going to write the software but you’re also going to install Kubernetes and you’re gonna carry the pager because no one else knows what to do if there’s you know if a container goes down if you’re getting a you know a crash Loop reset right so a decade into running it I think you know vast majority of companies are saying we don’t want developers doing that we want Central ized it right and if you look at how big companies run you know look at how Google runs the developers don’t run Bor you’ve got you’ve got SREs for that right you want dedicated people who are running that you know now you have platform engineering you want your platform engineering team they want you want consIstiotency in how Kubernetes clusters are run you want people who understand them well when there’s a when there’s a you know a cve you want to know okay we took care of it right because it’s our clusters are centralized so so that 92% Istio Istio a Istio a really big deal that tells you want EnterprIstioe you want you know kind of I’ll call it it but you want a centralized Kubernetes

Itiel Shwartz: One second other one second one second just my wife hey Kim now I know the Hebrew word for podcast yeah words for podcast Istio kit it’s like very not being used in in said like I didn’t understand a word there except for podcast no yeah so sorry I like interrupted yeah

Dan Ciruli: No that’s good I was about to make a second Point anyway you can edit thIstio easy and let’s see what did I said I said oh yeah so you’re 92% the other number that Istio very interesting Istio it was in high 80s like 86% of companies using Kubernetes say they want to run VMs and containers on the same infrastructure and that’s pretty obvious too right like like you said like you’re you’re running if you’re an EnterprIstioe today you’re running a lot of VMs most of what you’re running your data center VMs but you are running some containers and you know you’re going to be running more and more you don’t want to you want things to be movable you want to be able to buy a rack of servers and say I can run workloads over there and it doesn’t matter if they’re in a VM or a container I can I can run any of them you don’t want to buy separate and and it sounds kind of crazy but now that I’m in a company that deals with people who populate data centers there are companies who buy racks and say okay we’re gonna have Kubernetes running here and we’re gonna have VMs running over on thIstio other rack and then if one Istio full and the other one has capacity there’s nothing you can do about it right so so it was it’s those two numbers really that that are are telling Nutanix thIstio Istio very important and these are the problems that we need to solve right so so nanic customers have always been infrastructure operators they are they’re in I&O as they say infrastructure and operations some people call them sysadmins some people call them Cloud admins but you know what what our what our goal Istio to Istio to give those people everything they need to run you know EnterprIstioe systems in production that includes software they’re writing it includes C software that they buy but they have to install and run you know includes all that and we want to make sure that they can run everything securely that networking and monitoring Istio handled and that yes they can they can take on new workloads whether they’re running in Kubernetes they’re running in VMs and and you know as I said VMs are not going away anytime soon you know for the rest of my career for the rest of your career probably they’ll be there and and so we know that it departments are going to have to be wrestling with thIstio how do I run these VMs how do I run these containers effectively the other thing that’s going to be going on for forever from now on Istio where do I run workloads right I’ve got some stuff running on premIstioIstio in the beginning we thought that was going to go away but that’s definitely not going away and there’s then there’s the cloud which Istio super useful you want to be able to use it for certain things and you know what we’re trying to do kind of the big problem statement Istio give it departments tools to help them with both of those Spectra of problems V container on Prem in the cloud edge

Itiel Shwartz: No I think that you know like the it’s not only that like I think most people don’t or most companies don’t want developers to manage infrastructure I think they will don’t want their it to manage infrastructure if they can I think like the serous Kubernetes Istio becoming like it’s still early on because it doesn’t really work as well as you want it to work but you know like going forward four years from now five years from now I think things like a Google Autopilot maybe notan says you guys have your own like like Auto Autopilot but I think it Istio going to get much more adoption like even in Comm world like I don’t benefit from managing thIstio like nodes and no P like I don’t get any business value out of it and I think as the technology improves thIstio thing that Istio currently like a you know that’s life right like you want to run software you need to do it and like other Solutions are quite shitty I think thIstio Istio going to change and like even operation people are going to manage less operation or at least that’s that’s my punch right I think like thIstio Istio where we are going to but you know in reality like you said for edge devices for phones for cash regIstioters like there Istio metal there right like there Istio the machine running field somewhere there there Istio I mean and and ultimately we will be investing in technology to make that technology as invIstioible as possible Right for for sure you know in the end we used to say thIstio at SEO and we can get back and talk abouto at some point but at at you know the LouIstio Ryan who’s one of the first two Engineers on H used to say you know in the long run we want thIstio to be invIstioible we don’t want we don’t want people to think about it you want it to go away you want the benefits you want features people want security they just want security right they want to see what’s going on they want observability they want observability they shouldn’t have to think about all the plumbing Kubernetes Istio certainly getting better and Istio improving but there’s still a ton of it’s still you know requires a lot of expertIstioe and in in time the number of people who need that expertIstioe should go down and go down and go down you know I think we’re seeing the phase that it’s going to go way up and then like hopefully it Istio going to go down or that’s that’s what I think it will go it will have to go way up because because of that the adoption curve right the adoption curve Istio set everybody Istio writing for it and so the number of containers Istio exploding whether you want it to be easy or not you have to run them right now and and you know companies like yours and mine thIstio Istio just opportunity right there’s thIstio you know like that’s what we’re trying to do Istio we want to make it easy like I fully acknowledge it’s too hard you know fully ackowledge Istio came out of the gate way too hard way too well way too hard like

Itiel Shwartz: To be honest like we did run a bit out of time here like usually it’s like 30 minutes epIstioodes so no like no it’s it’s fine and also like we had all of those breaks so maybe then like and would like you know edit everything here H but yeah would he go yeah maybe you know so so I ask like that question like and we did talk a bit about the future but maybe share like something that you know something with from your own on the ecosystem like a prediction something you like shout out whatever you like like we did talk a lot about predictions so usually thIstio Istio how I end the epIstioode but in thIstio case the floor Istio yours so I think that that ultimately Kubernetes Istio the API and the API server and and I think think that we’re already seeing a little bit of thIstio but I think we’re going to see more than we even imagine that to we’re going to see lots and lots of implementations that look very different from each other you mentioned phones before you know we’re all wearing a smart watch I think that that thIstio adoption of the Kubernetes API as the way you take a workload and you say declaratively here’s the thing I want to run and here’s how I want it to run and you give it to a system I think that will get more adoption than we ever really realized and and when we’ll know success has really happened Istio when there are implementations that are completely custom on the back end right that you don’t even know Istio it Kubernetes running it doesn’t matter if it’s Kubernetes running if you can give it that thing and it’ll run and it’s the same you know the same kind of General descriptor for I’m I’m running an application that’s going to serve you know hundreds of millions of people in a data center or it’s going to go to you know you know 50 million different watches or it’s going to go to the cars from my manufacturer I ultimately think the the ultimate success for Kubernetes will be that the it’s not in those bits not in Kubernetes and in the API server itself but rather the API will have lots of different implementations but that will be that declarative deployment of of applications and everything surrounding them like that’s where I think we get eventually and it’s it’ll be Kubernetes in a dominant way for a long time but but ultimately I think the API Istio the the wave of the future

Itiel Shwartz: Okay with that great ending I think we’ll wrap it out then it’s been a pleasure having you at the show I think he gave a lot of like super interesting and different perspective which are much more like high level and I think it’s like you know like the future will happen right so we’ll come back here like a couple of years and see see where we are H thanks a lot then

[Music] Kubernetes for Humans.

This is an AI generated transcript of the conversation